You're listening to Strictly Business Podcast with Lindsay Williams.
BJC has closed its doors for another day, so it's time for the 5 o'clock shadow.
And as it's a Thursday, I'm speaking to Viv Govender from the award-winning
Ransuisse and David Shapiro,
the award-winning portfolio manager from Sassfin Securities.
You are.
I looked it up the other day, actually, David, how many awards you'd won.
You get lots of them.
Various names, various things over the years.
But anyway, never mind that.
It's the five o'clock shadow.
And I want to talk about a couple of things.
And I'll start with you, David, because you were absent last week.
Let's start with jobs or as Mr.
Trump would say, jabs.
A tremendous amount of jabs apparently were created in the first month of this
year in the United States.
Data, late data came out yesterday to show that non-farm payrolls increased by
130,000 for the month versus the
expectation of 60,000.
Headlines were blowout jobs numbers and the Fed is going to hold rates and
everything.
What's a blowout job number?
130,000 for a population of 300 million.
And just before you comment, I know you're champing at the bit there,
181,000 in 2025 was the revised number.
Not a month, but over the whole year.
181,000.
It's pathetic, David.
So blowout number, please do me a favour.
No, I think it was just simply that.
It was better than expected.
It's not a blowout number.
You know, we're still getting used to the adjustments that came from the government
shutdown.
So certain jobs that weren't there are coming back.
I think it just gave the market a little bit of comfort.
And I think the Fed will look at these numbers.
And I think it's just reinforcing a view that there are only going to be maybe two
cuts
in interest rates this year, if any.
So I think...
Lindsay, the way I read it, I don't think the story is having any kind of impact on
the market.
I think if it was a really poor number, yes, it would have led to an earlier rate
cut.
But I don't think the numbers that we're getting out now are swaying the market
either way.
We just I know we're getting the inflation number out tomorrow once more.
I don't think one can read that there's not going to be inflation pushing up high.
and nor do they expect it to come down.
So I think we're just going through the motions at the moment of analysing data.
But I've got no, I don't think there are any strong feelings.
We'll talk later, you know, which I spoke to you on Monday about,
where I think jobs will start coming down the line with the amount of spending
that's taking place.
But it's not there yet.
Yeah, Viv, on Monday, David was talking about giant data centres being built, the
construction doing well, and plumbers,
and all that sort of thing.
And I made the point that...
It doesn't take that long to build a data center.
And then the jobs have gone because the things that are in the data center don't
need to use bathrooms.
So there's not a bathroom on every floor, et cetera.
So we had a good to and fro with that.
Viv, the other thing I wanted to talk about, let's talk about the economy before
we drop the subject, Viv.
Because it isn't doing too badly, is it?
I mean, I saw Pam Bondi yesterday talking about when she was supposed to be talking
about Epstein and Minnesota.
She got sidetracked.
when she was cornered and started talking about the economy and the Dow Jones and
got it all completely wrong.
But and said Donald Trump, in fact, was the greatest president in the history of
the United States.
But Viv, it is doing quite well.
I suppose that helps every sector, doesn't it?
AI included.
Look, I mean, a couple of things.
Firstly, the jobs number is worse than you think, because if you take out health care
jobs, it had negative job growth last year.
So.
Healthcare jobs, it was just over 100% of all the jobs that were created last year
were healthcare, meaning that without healthcare, you had negative job growth,
right?
And obviously, healthcare is not exactly the sector you want to be growing with
really fast, because, you know, it really doesn't add to the long-term productivity.
I mean, if you have somebody that breaks a leg and they go to the doctor, that's
effectively GDP.
But the world isn't better because somebody broke their leg, you know what I
mean?
So that is one way to look at it.
The other thing is that it's the numbers of the AI sector, right?
I mean, the numbers are just insane.
I mean, if you're talking about two-thirds of a trillion dollars are going to be
spent on
AI in the next year just by what's being announced by the big companies, two-thirds
of a trillion dollars, that's like 2% of US GDP,
right, on AI in the next year.
So if you think about it from that point of view, if you're going to be adding this
2% of GDP growth because of the data centers, you know,
you take that out and like, what does the actual GDP number look like?
But even that being said, I do think it's kind of strange at the moment that we are
seeing GDP growth numbers coming through, like you said.
without accompanying job numbers.
And like I said, it's actually negative job numbers outside the healthcare sector.
This is a very...
weird looking economy at the moment in the US.
Here comes David now with his theory.
Two thirds of a trillion is the number that Viv's thrown around, David.
Just a little bit more glamorous than the number you talked about on Monday, but not
that much more glamorous, but it's encouraging for you.
So you go on now with your jobs theory, please, and economy theory.
It's exactly that.
The numbers that are coming up are something like almost the total will be
about two trillion, not only on data centers.
So somewhere down the line, this has to...
And this is a year.
Hey, whoa, whoa, this is just one year.
This is not over four or five years.
This is just one year.
And that means that there's a lot of multiplier effect from that number.
You know, when you spend one dollar, that goes through the economy a few times
before it frizzles out.
And it creates jobs.
That's why each data center, and I'm going to repeat it because Viv's going to back
me up.
These are sophisticated.
These are very sophisticated.
They're not a cart.
Sorry, they're not one of those containers that fell off the back of a truck or
something.
These are massive businesses and incredibly sophisticated.
If you look, I think Vertiv came out with their results,
which provide the cooling systems for the data centers.
Highly sophisticated technology.
So somewhere along the line, you're going to be training.
It's not only building, putting bricks down.
bricks and mortar, but it's also all the equipment that goes in there,
plus the technicians that have to run it and are being trained ahead of every other
economy.
So it's only China and America that are doing this in any big way.
And my view is, hold on, this is going to just push them ahead of other economies.
You know, Europe is still deciding, you know, they still say it's got to go
through this layer and that layer of...
of regulation and finally this one and so on.
You really hate Europe, don't you?
Every chance you get, you have a go at Europe.
No, I just don't like the way that they...
Look at the Eurodollar.
But anyway, sorry, I interrupted you because I'm sitting in Europe.
No, no, you're right.
Why?
Because you remember when they formed the EU,
this was going to challenge America as an economic area.
We're going to put all our resources together.
Well, yeah, you're making some good...
handbags.
Ernie's results were out today.
They were great.
That's a terrible thing to say.
Wonderful motor cars.
Wonderful motor cars, Ferrari.
A great company, I must say, ASML.
It's probably the one tech area that does exist exactly where you live.
But otherwise, they're behind.
So I'm saying, come on, man.
Do something.
Viv, you've got to come in here and help me.
These sophisticated cooling systems are being built.
Yes, they will boost AI, and AI will hopefully, with all that extraordinary
spend, boost GDP.
Does it boost jobs?
I don't think so.
Maybe temporarily.
I'm not sure.
Aviv, can you come in on this one before we go to other matters, please?
One thing I can say, they can't do this next year.
Do you know why?
There's no power in the U.S.
to power the study centers after this kind of build-out.
They will run out of power in the next couple of years if they continue at this
rate.
Because one of the data centers is roughly the size of a mid-sized city in terms of
the amount of power it takes on.
That's why it requires the sophisticated handling.
Because imagine powering a mid-sized city.
But a computer that takes the power of a mid-sized city, it's incredible.
A computer obviously has tiny, tiny voltage, like torrents.
And you're powering this amount of power through it.
It makes a huge difference.
So, yes, that is very sophisticated.
But you build it for another year or two.
Where do you get the power to do that?
kind of power these things up.
That's why Elon Musk is talking about putting stuff into space, which sounds
ridiculous until you look at the maths behind it.
If they're going to continue to do this kind of build-out, say, until 2030,
they literally have to build it in space because they can't get the power on Earth,
which is an insane idea at the moment.
But the other thing is that we talk about the economy.
This is more than the economy.
I mean, understand that the people that win AI are not winning like an economic
race.
They're not going to have like a little kind of jump up in GDP or whatever.
They are literally going to win the future.
If AI is real, and it does seem to be real, you are talking about the people
that win it are going to be the people whose
grandchildren own planets.
And the people that don't win it are going to be the people that are going to be
effectively in the government dole for eternity.
You know what I mean?
That is the differential you're talking about here.
That is why they are willing to spend this kind of money.
That is why, insanely now, Google, with all its massive cash flow, is borrowing
money to invest in AI.
You know what I mean?
The Google search bar is literally the most cash-generative thing ever invented
in human history.
And of course, okay, they are doing some treasury stuff.
They do have like tens of billions in whatever.
But still the idea that Google is borrowing money to invest in AI, right, is
an insane kind of situation.
These guys are going, you know, gangbusters on AI because they think that
they are really close.
And by really close, I don't mean they think it's going to happen in the next 10
years.
They are thinking it's going to happen by 2030.
You know what I mean?
That's around the corner.
That's four years away.
Four years away.
And another thing I want to point out is that, and this is a bit of a pet peeve,
which I'm trying to argue to people.
You know what the most innovative thing in AI has been in the last year or so?
Go on.
It's Claudebot.
Claudebot, now changed to Maltbot, now changed to openClaude.
It's a funny story, if you ever want to get into it, about how this thing
happened.
But anyway, invented by one man.
who basically wasn't even trying to do something he was basically a guy he's the
guy that made i don't know if you have you guys have iphones uh yes
i do it's called ps pdf kit it's how you what are you pdfs on iphones you know the
app
yeah yeah he invented that app basically sold it retired so ai was playing around
with
it just for the fun of it okay and created a whole new segment of the marketplace
that's now taking everything by storm
Why couldn't it happen in South Africa?
Why couldn't there be a smart kid in South Africa that did that kind of thing?
It's because we just don't have the vision of that, I think.
Why can't it happen in Europe?
You don't need a data center.
This wasn't a man with a data center.
It wasn't a man even on a mission to try and invent something.
No team, single person playing around invents the next stage of AI.
Okay?
And the thing is, Viv, before you go on, because
I know you are so passionate about and knowledgeable about this subject.
but The fact that he was just playing around means that there may be somebody
else playing around, maybe not with his background, his PDF background,
but somebody who's clever and somebody who's obsessed with AI and just doing
something in his homemade science lab,
whatever it is, a mini data center that David loves so much.
And he comes up with something and that can just happen.
And it's not like you invent, you suddenly discover oil and all the infrastructure.
palaver around getting oil out the ground and refining it, etc.
It can almost be implemented immediately, Viv.
Look, this guy did it at the end of last year.
It's literally four or five months old.
Is this Amodea?
Why do you call him Amodea?
Or the two of them?
Or is that anthropic?
Who was the...
No, no, no, Amodea.
Amodea.
That's why they had to change the name because this guy literally used a name
called Claude Bott because he was just a game.
He wasn't even trying to do anything complicated.
He was just playing a little kind of...
no cell phone project it called it like playing a computer game factorium he's
made his money he's retired and he's just basically playing
a game and he named it claude but as a joke but when it became real he had to
change the name to malt bot then to open claw
because basically uh claude's email saying sorry this is too close to our name you
know what i mean
it's it's literally a man who basically obviously skilled because he has a an app
that is in a a billion devices,
literally a billion devices.
But he was playing around.
He's European, by the way.
I think he's German or something.
Ah, okay.
Yeah.
So the brains are there.
But the problem is that all the stuff that's going to happen out of this is not
going to happen in Europe.
It's going to happen in the US.
Yes, because they've got the money, yeah.
They've got the money, but they don't have the money.
Like you said, this shows you don't need the money.
They have something different.
They have the regulatory environment.
They have the entrepreneurial spirit.
But this man, I mean, went through this whole thing.
Somebody said monetize, he's not even thinking of monetizing it.
He says, I have enough money, you know, I'm financially secure.
That is the difference.
I mean, the brains of Europe are there, but somehow that drive, that connection to
the, you know, the engine,
the gear to the wheels, you know what I mean, that connection is broken somehow.
So it's kind of weird as to why Europe is falling behind, because they do all the
stuff.
They invented AI with DeepMind.
Geoffrey Hinton is British.
This guy here is, I think he's European, I think he's German, but it's all going to
happen in America.
Yeah, well, you see this chap at this very moment, David, is driving around in his
Ferrari with his
Louis Vuitton handbag over his shoulder and going home for a delicious glass of
wine, but nothing else because
America gives the money for the development of his idea.
That's the problem.
You can get it in America.
You can't get it in Europe.
They haven't got the mentality, certainly in South Africa.
There are no companies here that will lend you that kind of money to develop it.
We talk about it and we talk.
There isn't.
You know, you go to any one of our major banks with an idea like that.
You've got no chance.
In America, the amount of money that is prepared to back you in big way and they,
you know,
and they wait.
You don't have to give them, first of all, you don't have to put your auntie and your
uncle and your, you know,
your children up as collateral.
There are the VC funds,
and that's been the massive success around the U.S.
technology drive.
They've got the money and they're prepared to take it.
And that's why I just think that America just keeps driving ahead using this
technology.
And listen, it's also the claim, it's also the reason that there's so much opposition
to Trump and his visas, you know,
or stopping visas, stopping people from coming through.
I worry about the World Cup, David.
We've got to cut this one short, but I worry about the World Cup.
But you're absolutely right.
America is very open and open for business,
whereas you quite rightly say the regulation in Europe really is quite
something.
But things do work on this continent, I must say, particularly in the country I
live in.
Okay, I want to ask you, David, stay with you on this one, because while people like
yourself and Viv have...
been early on the AI surge, stock surge that is.
People are now saying, okay, well, I missed out on this particular stock, so
I've got to look for other stocks.
I've got to be clever here.
I've got to think laterally.
And so they're thinking about companies that are hit by AI.
And we know that software has been to the fore in this regard.
But there's also others.
UBS created a list of of European stocks that have been knocked by
AI investor short sellers.
And it's software, real estate, for some reason,
insurance and financial services are the top four sectors.
Tell me which one of those.
I mean, obviously, financial services rings a bell with you.
But why is AI hitting financial services, do you think?
Are you talking to Viv?
No, I'm talking to you.
Now it's your turn.
And then Viv will come in.
You first, David.
Okay, no, there's this view that...
The impact on software, sorry,
it's really going to disrupt their models, you know, their traditional models.
They can automate tasks and reshape kind of workflows that
are in those models that you're talking about.
So you're going to, you don't need them.
You can actually find a lot of that information yourself.
Let's say you're looking for a home or something like this and you would go to...
realestate.com, you know, you can do it yourself.
Now, you don't have to go through that.
So a lot of businesses that were offering these services, I think, are under
pressure.
The belief that you won't go to them, you know how many companies there are, you
want to look for, it's almost like going to Amazon and that.
I don't know exactly, but my own view is that these businesses will embrace these
if they're clever
within their models.
Yes.
I don't think they're going to be completely sidestep.
Why it's going to affect financial services, I'm not sure.
Research, maybe.
But if you're an amateur, but I'm a little worried that this has been overdone.
Okay.
Sorry, I know I'm not articulating it.
properly but you're making good points especially on the software side i think in
fact they will probably embrace ai and
this is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction but viv you wanted to uh to talk about this as
well what about uh
companies that have been or might be disrupted by ai what do you think yeah
look i mean the thing is that i think honestly i think david is correct right
right now it's not not there right now but i mean i just go back
there's a famous will smith eating spaghetti video from about two years ago
watch that video and watch what ai video looks like by today
then compete then imagine that if today's you know financial software that ai
software is like that will smith video from two years from in the past
in two years time it'll be better than warren buffer talking to you honestly
right and and and the majority of people out there don't do um you know their own
financial planning don't do their own financial
services not because they are not smart enough to do it because a lot of stuff is
is quite simple.
It's because they don't understand the processes, the rules, the different
nuances and so on.
You combine a cloud, but an open cloud rather, the thing that's available right
now, this agent thing.
If it was secure, it could easily handle opening a tax-free savings account for
you,
giving you a basic portfolio that's not going to be basically shooting lights out,
but will probably perform as well as the majority of funds out there.
It could easily...
handle things like, for instance, starting up insurance, shopping around different
insurance companies.
Basically, you could ask it questions about, can I claim for this insurance, and
could you put the claim through for me?
You know what I mean?
Those are the kind of things.
How much of the special services industry is that?
It's a lot.
And I think that is what's going to be there.
It's interesting, because I did exactly that today.
I'm talking to Viv.
You know what I'm saying?
I did...
Exactly.
I said, hold on a sec.
This software area has been hurt badly.
This is ridiculous.
And I said, I want to find an ETF,
a product where it embodies all of these companies, ServiceNow, Salesforce, the
ones that you're talking about.
And sure enough, within a few minutes, not even a few minutes as I hit it, and I'm
only using coworker.
I haven't gone down to anything sophisticated.
This is like the basic level.
I certainly got four or five different ideas.
They didn't exactly fit out for me because it had more top-end
stocks rather than the ones that I was looking that had been hit.
But I get exactly what Viv is saying.
I didn't have to go phone up someone at an institution or anybody there and say,
please look for me, put product together.
It was done.
It gave me an idea.
It gave me somewhere to start looking as well.
So, yeah, I can understand that.
I can identify with that, sure.
Okay.
Very good.
Let's have a look at other things now because it is the 5 o'clock shutter, so we
have to look at the close of the JSC.
And, David, just to stay with you quickly because
AB InBev came out with numbers and they were pretty well received by the market
because they're around about 4%
gain in round terms on the JSC today.
On the other hand, we had...
What do we have on the downside?
South 32 came down.
They are down about 3%. And the one that we'll talk about later on is Aspen.
So all those people that have got it in your crystal challenge are really, really
loving it today.
So you mentioned that last week.
But AB InBev, you were talking about people not drinking anymore, not going out
anymore, not mating anymore.
So what's happening with AB InBev?
Why have they done well?
I think just a slightly better...
In fact, I didn't go through the results, so you've got me there.
I was hoping Viv would be the drinker that would come in and help me there.
I just didn't listen to our analyst report this morning.
No, in that case, it doesn't matter.
I could see it was, you know, revenue was up, I believe, and volumes are slightly
vermer.
But nothing, in fact, volumes are down.
I'm just looking now, volumes down and that.
But I think it's from an efficiency point of view, they're improving there.
but I don't know.
I'm still a bit nervous about the trend.
But before I make a dig a deeper hole for myself, I'm not going to say anything more
about it.
Okay, David is not going to say anything about local stocks.
He's too immersed in artificial intelligence programs.
I saw AEL, Eltron and other stocks came out today.
Aspen, I couldn't understand.
There's so much noise there.
It is a very, very noisy result.
You know what I mean?
That you have to spend a lot of time and also you have to know the business.
to be able to interpret what they say and uh you know from my point of view i i just
didn't have the
um you know i just didn't have the understanding but i did choose it in the
crystal challenge and i'm up eight percent today congratulations
i on the other hand on the other hand i must tell you i chose pick and pay for my
wife and that went the other way and that
but i haven't told her that i've got pick and pay you can tell her when you get back
from your two weeks away with your ex-girlfriend like Bill
Gates.
OK, Viv, we've got the State of the Nation address coming up.
We've got the mining in Darbar, South Africa booming, apparently because of,
what is it,
Wulinglela Phase 2, which is being initiated now.
I did a good podcast with a very earnest young woman this morning about that.
So that got me all optimistic.
But then I look at South Africa's, Viv, December manufacturing output.
It fell by 1.4%.
I did another podcast a couple of days ago with, again, a woman, and she ranted at
people that want to bring their dollars back because the
RAND's going to 12, 12.50, what they've been told.
And she said, no, just wait a second.
It's all commodities.
We don't make anything in South Africa.
She was actually rather anti-Viv, the South Africa story.
But it's nice and stable, isn't it?
Look at that 10-year bond rate at 7.95%.
Yeah, look, I mean, I do think that, yeah, there is a...
We are totally dependent.
Part of it is what we did.
I mean, we ended load shedding.
People forget how devastating that was to the economy.
I think there's areas that are still having issues, but it's like nowhere near
what it was two years ago.
We've had a big turnaround since I think the GNU we formed was a bit of a vibe
shift.
And then as it was kind of pitchering out, we got the boost off of the commodity
sector with gold prices going as crazy as they have been.
But I do think that this is quite vulnerable.
We're going to have a municipal election this year, and obviously in the upcoming
years we're going to have the next national election.
I don't think the GNU survives to that.
We've already seen a shift in power at the DA.
So I think it's going to be a bit of a hectic thing.
Honestly, getting back to my point about the AI, which I'm sorry to harp on, these
guys I'm talking about, like, you know, oh, 2040,
2030 is just around the corner.
And if you are investing in South Africa, unfortunately, there's very little in
South Africa that touches that besides maybe NASPERS, you know what I mean, which
is a Chinese company.
So I'm a bit nervous about, you know, just what's been happening around that.
Regarding the...
Sorry, I didn't say the rest of it.
Maybe in there.
I'm actually not a drinker myself.
I haven't had a drop to drink, I think, 25 years.
Gosh.
So, yeah.
But I think they were talking about the fact that apparently they're going to
benefit from the World Cup and
the Olympics and that kind of stuff.
And they're really amping up their spending for marketing to try and gain
market share, even though they are a dominant player in the market anyway.
But if you look at their profit forecast, it's actually significantly higher than,
for instance, some of their rivals.
And maybe that's why people are shifting towards them.
in the drinking space.
And don't forget the non-alcoholic beverage sector.
Okay, it's small compared to the traditional sector, but it is doing well.
I mean, I sit down at home.
I'm going to be watching Arsenal against Brentford tonight at nine o'clock,
and I'll have in front of me a Warsteiner zero-alcohol beer.
And it pains me to say that, but that has been my life for the last year.
And although it's good for my health, it's just not the same.
David?
You know what happens?
You know, the power of the mind.
If I have a non-alcoholic beer, I feel drunk.
You think you're drunk.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
But after three, my body says, wait a second, there's something going on here.
You're trying to fool me.
I'm sure you're having a laugh, aren't you?
That's what it says to me.
I had exactly the same experience when I first started doing it.
Let's have a look.
Lindsay, just on the subject of the economy,
there was a rather distressing report that came out of the IMF about South African
growth.
And I think...
They identified the issues around South Africa,
a lot of risks that we have to face, which is more global, you know,
globally, global politics, geopolitics.
And if you look at their forecast, that's what worries me.
I don't know if they're always correct, but for the next few years, we're still
under 2, nowhere near 2%.
And we can't grow, we can't thrive.
You know, with growth around those levels, without the kind of investment that you're
seeing from data centers and so on, you know,
maybe not data centers here, but without that kind of commitment and that,
we're just going to bumble along.
I saw your article,
it was on LinkedIn and it was to do with,
it was marking the 36th anniversary to the day of.
Nelson Mandela being released from incarceration.
And David, you go on from there.
You say, yes, South Africa's done well, but then you compared it to China, United
States, maybe even Europe.
Anyway, go on.
That's exactly what I did.
I did this because, you know, for my wife, it was a very important day.
Her parents had been elected in, I mean, sorry,
they had been arrested in 1964.
And on that day, well, just a week before that.
My mother-in-law was finally freed.
My father-in-law had died before in 1987, but she was freed.
You know, she was unbanned and was allowed to travel, get a passport and so on.
So I cynically said, you know, while she was going on about these dates,
I was trying to look at the S&P and see whether it was at an all-time high.
But anyway, I did go back and look at some numbers.
And, you know, so...
Although the GDP has grown four times in that period,
China is up 50 times and
Eastern Europe much stronger than us and many other countries, Singapore, South
Korea and so on.
And when we look at our GDP per capita, it's around about $6,000.
I'm not going into fancy economics and saying let's do it on a purchasing parity
kind of basis and that.
I'm just taking numbers.
you know, for comparative purposes.
So our GDP per capita is around 6,300.
America, 83,000.
China, 12,000.
You know, even Brazil, nine.
So we've fallen behind the rest of the world.
Something, those that are making hubs, and I specifically looked at those companies,
Israel, about 40,000,
which is a hub.
It's a tech hub.
Singapore is now a financial center, 24,000 per person, and so on.
No, sorry, it's 86,000.
My apologies.
South Korea is also now 34,000.
So we're way behind the rest of the world and haven't grown anywhere near the
potential that we
should have grown.
That's the point.
And nor are we heading that way either.
Okay.
Well, at least we stabilized last year and hopefully this year as well, because all
my stocks are
SA-centric in my crystal challenge.
Well, they had to be.
We wouldn't let you go in otherwise.
Yeah, but I could have got Anglo Gold because it's… Oh, yeah, you could have
done that.
No, but these are ones that do their business within the borders of the
Republic of South Africa, sell clothes and things.
I see a couple of retailers do well today.
So I should have got a little bit of a boost.
Sorry, Viv.
Dollar Rand is 1585.
That's pretty good.
That's a multi-year high, I think it is.
The British pound against the Rand, 2164.
Euro Rand, 1883.
The gold price is 5071, down $7 an ounce on its lows of the day, actually.
Finished yesterday at midnight.
It was around about 5100.
It's the reason I was up at midnight, David, because I was watching Man City
versus Fulham.
the Platinum price is $21.33, down $13 an ounce.
Palladium going in the opposite direction, up $38 to $17.43.
Let me give you another couple of commodities from my CRB Commodity Index
page.
There it goes.
Crude oil down 1.4%.
That's West Texas, $63.72.
But Brent crude oil, $68.45, down 1.4%.
The all-important copper price for South Africa now, and for my copper 360
investment.
5.94 for that, and that's down half a percent.
U.S.
10-year bond yield.
Yeah, the bond market liked those numbers yesterday, so it's just below 4.14%.
It has recently been 4.30%.
I still don't back it, though.
The South African is great, 7.96% for the South African 10-year.
Barely changed on the day.
Bitcoin.
Yeah, the dead cat bounce I spoke to you about on Monday, David,
has played out very nicely because it's back at just over 67,000.
And what else have we got?
The S&P that you were looking at when your wife was trying to be political,
6,967 for the March futures,
which has really changed on the day.
So that's that.
Let's have a look at some of the movers on the JSC today, if I can find it.
Where's that gone?
South Africa.
I haven't got it.
Oh, gosh.
You two talk amongst yourselves.
Viv, next week, I want to talk about China from an AI perspective,
because I've got an interview tomorrow morning with a woman in China who's just
an equity
investor in China stocks.
So I want you to come up with the idea, and you can tease us now if you like,
of any stocks that you think are undervalued compared to their American
peers.
in China, and do you like them?
Can you give us a bit of a taster now, Viv?
Look, I like Huawei, but I think you can get into that.
But I think if you can get into China right now, I think the energy advantage
they have, especially this company called CATL,
it does batteries.
I think that is one way you can convert solar into power you can use for data
centres, et cetera.
As well as, I mean, if you have batteries, this is one of the big producers of EV
batteries.
It's going to be for robots.
for self-driving vehicles, because self-driving vehicles have to be electric.
They can't be petrol-driven because it's easier to operate an electric vehicle.
I think the battery sector in China, I think, is something that they're going to
have an advantage with that's going to be very difficult for anyone else in the
world to compete in.
It's both high technology, it's technique, but it's also something in which you have
to actually be able to manufacture at that scale.
And I don't think many people can beat that.
But one funny thing I heard about, and I don't know if we should ask about it,
But some chip analyst was saying that in China they're so like
you're obsessed with this whole AI thing that some of the dramas, the Chinese love
dramas take place in
AI chip fabricating labs.
So it's like you're not a doctor but a chip scientist or you know that kind of
stuff.
But there's one more thing I want to point out, right?
The Chinese have been operating a different kind of system since like the
1980s, where they kind of go out and they take about the 100,000 smartest kids in
the country.
This is out of about, say, 12, 15 million kids every year that, you know, graduate,
but 100,000 go to these junior schools.
And if you look at all the AI, all the guys that did the deep-seeking, all the
guys that did the tech companies in China and so on,
All these guys came through this genius kind of schooling system that they have at
the moment,
where they kind of scrape the top of the cream of the crop of all those things.
They focus that genius in one area.
They give them all the stuff that they want to do.
You get like the guy that was the Turing Award, teaching you computer science.
You get all the support you need.
And that, I think, is...
something maybe they can explain exactly you know how we as an african copy that
maybe that might be an interesting thing to talk about okay well one
thing she will be talking about to me is something that she sent me she said the
economy has shifted away from property and exports
property we all know about towards advanced manufacturing ai clean energy and
domestic innovations
donald trump of course says no they just produce the windmills as he calls them and
then sells them to to america and europe
Obviously not the case.
Clean energy, massive in China.
And that's also linked in with AI.
Anyway, I'll report back, gentlemen.
Let me just, gosh, I've lost my screen again now with all these different things
I've got open.
Anyway, David, just to end here,
I want to say that when we were chatting over the weekend, at one point on Sunday
afternoon,
it was looking as though Arsenal would be nine points clear at the top.
Okay.
with a superior goal difference, meaning that City would have to win every game,
Arsenal would have to lose three games, and City would have to score more goals,
so it wouldn't be.
Then in 10 minutes, just in a 10-minute period, that all changed.
And now we've got City only three points behind.
Yes.
If Arsenal lose tonight, which is unlikely, but if they lose tonight, the
goal difference is more or less the same.
and If City beat Arsenal at the Etihad, I'm getting complicated here, then they'll
be level on points.
That would be fantastic for the neutral like me, wouldn't it?
But you're worried, right?
Yeah, I think one is, you know, there are 13 games still to go.
So anything can happen.
You can see it.
The players are tired.
They're stretched.
Injuries can happen.
One can't take it for granted.
Don't underrate Brentford either.
They're a very good team, well-drilled, play nice football.
Yeah, they don't win every game.
But, you know, you can get a nervous Arsenal getting onto the field.
You know, they've got to overcome the gyps, what do you call it, the yips?
The yips, yes.
And the jitters.
And they've got to go on there and say, listen, we're going to win this game.
I think they will.
Don't worry.
I know.
I'm hoping they do.
But, you know, you can't take this for granted.
I'm just a realist.
I'm not one of these panickers.
I'm saying, look, it's far from over.
I think even at the bottom of the league, you've got the worst thing is you've got
Spurs there.
You know, just on the brink.
We'll talk about this more on Monday, Dave, because Viv's either gone or nodded
off.
Viv doesn't want to listen to this.
No, he doesn't listen to that rubbish.
He doesn't want to share my fears and concerns.
He hasn't had a beer for 25 years and he doesn't like football.
This is an area of pain for me, OK?
what are you talking about leading the league we haven't we haven't won five
games in a row for like what like a couple years now people are dying promising not
to cut
their hair and stuff you know what i mean oh that chef have you seen his hair it's
extraordinary hasn't he hasn't had it cut for what 10 months with something
like that we had four and then the last one oh god how long do you do it
No, no, this guy said, I will only cut my hair when Manchester United win three
games in a row.
And they keep on teasing him.
And he started with five in a row.
Sorry, thanks, Viv.
He started out with a very normal looking haircut.
Now it went to an afro, which looked really cool, I must say.
But now it's just completely out of control.
He looks like some kind of mega capital invader.
He's extraordinary.
But it's great fun.
And he won't cut it.
He's very good.
Aspen is the biggest gainer on the JSC today.
Well done on those people that picked it.
Nearly 8% higher.
Sassel, I said, of course, it was going down to 70, 80 the other day.
And sure enough, it's up 7% today to 126.
Well done on a good indicator, me.
AB InBev up 4.7%.
Italtile 3.7%.
TFG, I've got that in my portfolio, 2.2% higher.
Downside South, 32% after results that weren't well received, down 3.4%.
four percent Telcom down 2.8%.
Pick and Pay, poor Linda, down 2.5%.
Alphamin down 2.25%.
And Exaro down 1.8%. The all-share index of the JSC Securities Exchange today
closed at
122,213, up 0.4%.
And up a third was the JSC Top 40.
Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time, your extended time this evening.
Viv Govender is from Ransu, with David Shapiro from Sasser and Securities.
And that was an extended 5 o'clock shadow.
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