WEBVTT

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You're listening to Strictly Business
Podcast with Lindsay Williams.

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The JSC has closed its doors for another
day, so it's time for the 5 o'clock

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shadow.

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And as always on a Wednesday, I speak to
Skulk Lowe, Portfolio Manager at PSG

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Wealth Old Oak in Cape Town.

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Now, Skulk, I spoke to you off air and
asked you to get a wire coat hanger.

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And

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I asked you to insert one end of the wire
coat hanger in your right cheek.

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and the other in your left cheek to see if
it would fit.

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And I'm betting there was room to spare
with the smile on your face.

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I know exactly what you're talking about.

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I mean, that smile is as good as gold.

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Good as gold.

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Isn't it fantastic news?

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I mean, it just doesn't stop.

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I mean, on the one hand, it is fantastic.

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On the other hand, you're beset with
worries because it is so fantastic and it

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just doesn't look real to me.

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I mean, I looked at...

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it my screen, it was 42.20 a little while
ago.

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Obviously, it's churning around that 4,200
level.

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But these are levels you could never have
predicted or hoped for, Skulk.

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No, I mean, I've been verbally positive on
the goal pass for many,

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many years.

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So there's no doubt.

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But I mean, this is just crazy.

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I mean, this is now bordering ludicrous.

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I mean, because, you know, we had...

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this conversation exactly a week ago where
we sort of had a similar not a coat hanger

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intro but but a very similar intro where
we went

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like can you believe it gold just ran
through four thousand dollars i mean now

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we're talking about

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four thousand two hundred dollars i mean
that's that's five percent another five

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percent in in one week i mean if you look
at the

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the levels that we've seen in in the
beginning of september beginning

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of september we were trading three three
and a thousand per ounce.

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If we take the clock back to the 1st of
January, you'll be talking about $2,500

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per ounce.

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I mean, so yeah, you need to be in it to
win it.

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And I think I've looked at a graph earlier
today where they plot the current movement

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of the gold price.

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And they look at the previous, I think the
previous massive spike that we've seen

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somewhere 30, 40 years ago.

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And the one thing is when gold move,

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don't be in too much of a rush to call
tops on this one because

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usually when something like this happens,
it can go a hell of a lot higher.

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There's two things I would say to you,
Skel.

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The first is that a German friend of mine
was watching German TV and she phoned me

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up and she said,

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I've just liquidated my savings and I'm
putting it into gold.

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Oh no.

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Big ring of a bell, a huge bell.

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And the other thing is, it hasn't happened
yet, but if there is any indication from a

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layman's point of view,

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that's me, I'm not an expert like you,
when the shares don't match the actual

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rise in the price of gold,

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so let's say gold goes to 4,500, but the
shares stay stable or even go down,

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from the level they were when they were
42.50, when the gold was 42.50 or

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something, that would be the time for me
to say, no,

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that's it, thank you very much.

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Is that it?

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It's called a non-confirmation, I think.

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Yeah, that's definitely a
non-confirmation.

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Excuse all the secretaries now, but they
usually say when the secretaries start

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buying equities,

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that's the closest time to we see a crash
in the market.

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Vietnam.

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Yeah, it is.

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There was a lot of good reasons why gold
should have moved over $2,000 and into the

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$2,000 levels.

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And on that note, do you remember that day
I sent you?

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I think it was March 17, 2022.

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I sent you a screenshot of the trading
market, live trading market in gold.

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And it was a bid of $9.98 and a half.

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Offer of $19.98 and a half was the bid.

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1999.3 was the offer or something.

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And we got so excited because it was just
about to go through 2000.

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And now look at it.

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We're still talking about this blasted
thing.

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It's three years ago, Lindsay.

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And I think more important, I can still
remember that day as well.

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Because I'm not going to look for it now.

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But I remember I still published a tweet,
tongue in the cheek,

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just stating.

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Do you remember when gold was still
trading below $2,000?

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Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

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And now it's just crazy to think.

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I mean, it was a joke that day.

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But I mean, here we're sitting three years
ago, and I want to ask you.

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Can you still remember when gold was still
trading below $2,000?

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I can remember when gold was trading at
$250 an ounce, but that's another story.

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I've got another story for you now, and
you probably know it, but it's very

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interesting.

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You're more of an accountant-leaning
person than I am.

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How much gold does the U.S.

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have in its reserves?

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Have you any idea?

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Give us a rough figure.

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No, don't give me a rough figure because
you're going to be way out.

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I'll tell you it's got 261.5 million
ounces.

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I mean you've seen the film

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Goldfinger, the James Bond film where he
was trying to knock off Fort Knox which is

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where a lot of the

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gold is kept underground and it's
encircled by troops 24 hours a day.

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But the important thing here is that the
book entry for gold is from 1973 and it

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hasn't been changed in all

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these decades.

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$42.

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And 22 cents per ounce.

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So if Trump ever finds this out, I mean,
he's too stupid to know it.

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But if he works out that gold at 4,000 is
very different,

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it's 100 times different to what the gold
is valued at, he could probably say, I'm

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going to value it at 4,000.

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Therefore, I'll be the president that made
gold go up from, I don't know how many

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billion it is,

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to just about a trillion dollars worth
they've got.

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And you go from there.

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But the book entry is obviously important
to the Treasury.

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What would happen if they actually valued
it at real prices?

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What would it mean for the United States
and indeed the world?

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I think there's quite a lot to digest,
what you just mentioned.

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But I think one thing that I think is
important to note is that the U.S.,

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they haven't increased their gold in...

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Decades.

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Yeah.

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We know the Bank of England.

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They look really bad.

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I think they must be one of the only
central banks that's actually reduced

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their gold

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reserves over the past, let's quote, 25
years.

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And man, oh man, can you still remember
what levels they actually sold?

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The last couple of tons or the last

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200,000 ounces or so were sold by a
Scottish fellow.

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He goes by the name of Gordon Brown.

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He was the Chancellor of the Exchequer at
the time and then went on to become Prime

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Minister.

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I think it was $252.20.

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And everyone waited for that last bit.

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They flagged it.

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They said, we're selling all our gold,
we've got X amount left.

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And all the traders were licking their
lips and rubbing their hands together and

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saying, right, Gordon Brown's out.

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And they just bought it from then on in.

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That was the signal for the turn in the
gold price.

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Gordon Brown, bless him.

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Anyway, just to go on, you're still long
and are you still bullish?

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Yeah.

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So, I mean, when you look at the United
Kingdom, they had just shy of 500 tons.

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So, about 300, let's go, 480 tons back
then.

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They're currently sitting with reserves,
you know, 310 tons.

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That is shameful.

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That is crazy.

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That is crazy.

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But to your point again, United States is
exactly the same.

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When we look at the current reserves for,
what's the second?

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Second largest is Russia.

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No, I'm lying.

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There's going to be France.

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But I mean, if you look at something like

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China, they're currently sitting with
2,279 tons gold.

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In 2000...

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China was sitting with 395.

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Look at that.

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They've just been accumulating all the
time.

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They're very clever.

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Exactly.

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Russia has probably been drawing down in
order to pay for the war in Ukraine.

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That's what I think.

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I know they've been doing that with
platinum group metals.

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But anyway, central banks have been
buying.

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And normally, in normal geopolitical
circumstances,

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unless there's something disastrous going
on with an economy, they're normally quite

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strong holders.

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So in other words, if they buy it at
4,000, they're not going to be selling it

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at 4,500.

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They'll hold on.

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But look at the effect that it had, for
instance, on the South African market.

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I had an interesting conversation today,
and I'll do some name-dropping.

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We had a conversation with Cornelius
Ziermann. He's one of the fund managers,

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the fund manager of the Fairtree Global
Emerging Market Fund.

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Yeah.

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And.

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We were talking about losing alpha,
gaining alpha, and I said, well,

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you guys were pretty overweight in gold.

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But interesting, so two years ago, I said
two could be...

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It could be a little bit longer.

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It could be that quarter 2022.

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The weight within the oil share, gold
shares.

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Remember, at that stage, Sabania still
watered, I mean, not even 10%

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of the profits were made out of gold
mining.

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Today, it's just 50%.

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I think 47%, 48% of the profits is made
out of gold.

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So we didn't count...

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So, Banya Stillwater has a gold counter
back then.

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So, there was only five gold counters.

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So, it's Anglia Gold, Goldfields, Harmony,
Durban Rediputi, Pan African Resources.

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They didn't make up 4% of the JSE.

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And now?

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Total weight.

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Today, as we sit here, it's over 16%.

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That's just the gold counters.

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And that's the market capitalization of
the stocks?

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That's the market capitalization.

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within the JSE All Show.

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by the JSE All Share in some form of ETF,
like, for instance, Satrix, Satrix Alls.

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16% of your holding, of your investment,

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will be invested in five gold mines.

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16%.

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If you, exactly a year ago, if you
invested in PGMs,

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now that's the likes of the Volterras,
Anglo-American Platinum, Impala Platinum,

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and Northern Platinum.

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That didn't make up, it was just over 2%.

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Today, as we sit here, the total weight of
those three counters is now 8%.

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So, if you combine the likes of your

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PGM counters and your gold counters, it's
now getting very,

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very close to a quarter of the total JSE.

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That's just precious metals.

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And that's just pretty...

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pretty much coming out of seven counters.

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No, sorry, it's eight counters.

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It's exciting in many ways, isn't it?

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Because it's like the old days.

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But on the other hand, it leaves the
market a little bit vulnerable should

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there be a bit of a knockoff.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, no, it's definitely worrying
because, I mean,

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the words that I heard the most over
today's conversation were that words.

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called concentration risk.

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Suddenly we're sitting with a bit of
concentration risk in the JSE as well.

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Here's a very interesting one.

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00:12:36.587 --> 00:12:42.392
And we've often had this conversation,
Lindsay, where we discuss the different

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indices.

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Back then we talked about what's the
difference between the JSE cap SWIX or cap

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00:12:51.564 --> 00:12:53.564
all share

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00:12:53.564 --> 00:12:54.908
compared to the JSE normal all share.

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And that's just usually...

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That's just that they cap certain
companies.

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You don't have a scenario like, for
instance, what's it, five years ago, six

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years ago,

240
00:13:06.410 --> 00:13:11.691
where a NASPAS suddenly makes up more than
20% of your total index.

241
00:13:13.691 --> 00:13:16.019
And that's why they created this.

242
00:13:16.082 --> 00:13:20.879
But if you look at the return profile of
both these indices,

243
00:13:22.019 --> 00:13:26.504
you would note that it's really been very,
very close, close in terms of

244
00:13:27.066 --> 00:13:33.969
um performances so in dollar terms if you
look at it year to date year to date uh

245
00:13:33.969 --> 00:13:35.969
the dollar return for for

246
00:13:35.969 --> 00:13:39.231
the jse is now way over 36 closer to

247
00:13:39.629 --> 00:13:45.785
40 40 then you get something called the
the um you could get something called the

248
00:13:46.004 --> 00:13:51.598
msci south african index now this is why
by the way scalco

249
00:13:52.594 --> 00:13:55.717
I couldn't manage to carry on a career in
financial services.

250
00:13:55.737 --> 00:13:57.340
It just became too complicated.

251
00:13:57.617 --> 00:13:58.317
But go on.

252
00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:00.060
Yeah.

253
00:14:00.121 --> 00:14:06.547
So you had your, what we call the JSE, or
the MSCI

254
00:14:07.328 --> 00:14:08.071
South Africa.

255
00:14:08.211 --> 00:14:13.922
Now, whenever you get an interview, a lot
of people will be very well known, you

256
00:14:13.922 --> 00:14:14.388
know,

257
00:14:14.388 --> 00:14:17.953
on what is the MSCI world or MSCI all
country world.

258
00:14:17.954 --> 00:14:19.078
Here's a little bit of a lesson.

259
00:14:19.438 --> 00:14:24.060
When somebody says they follow the MSCI
world, You know that you've got no,

260
00:14:24.781 --> 00:14:27.021
no exposure to any emerging markets.

261
00:14:27.341 --> 00:14:31.365
It's literally, you just invested in
developed markets.

262
00:14:31.927 --> 00:14:35.248
When it's got that all-country world in
front of it,

263
00:14:35.513 --> 00:14:40.568
then it's the developed markets or the
MSCI world with emerging markets.

264
00:14:40.834 --> 00:14:46.162
And that accounts for about, let's call it
15% of the total

265
00:14:46.662 --> 00:14:51.474
MSCI all-country world is the emerging
markets and the remaining 80%.

266
00:14:52.006 --> 00:14:54.232
85% will be developed markets.

267
00:14:55.034 --> 00:15:01.347
So then how do you get classified to
become part of the MSCI?

268
00:15:02.491 --> 00:15:09.174
So if that specific company is listed in
South

269
00:15:09.233 --> 00:15:14.217
Africa, because remember, if you invest in
the likes of British American tobacco

270
00:15:14.217 --> 00:15:16.217
company,

271
00:15:16.217 --> 00:15:20.233
although we got a secondary listing in
South Africa, the primary listing is in

272
00:15:20.233 --> 00:15:20.559
the UK.

273
00:15:21.436 --> 00:15:26.077
So that company will form part of the MSCR
UK, not South Africa.

274
00:15:26.499 --> 00:15:31.124
Okay, so because of its London listing,
that takes precedent over the...

275
00:15:31.863 --> 00:15:32.804
Johannesburg listing.

276
00:15:33.806 --> 00:15:34.506
That's it.

277
00:15:34.646 --> 00:15:35.346
Exactly.

278
00:15:36.228 --> 00:15:40.712
So if you invest, for instance, in
Richemont, Richemont,

279
00:15:41.470 --> 00:15:47.220
although it's again got its listing in
South Africa, its primary listing is in

280
00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:47.280
Switzerland.

281
00:15:47.298 --> 00:15:50.197
So that will form part of the MSCI

282
00:15:50.556 --> 00:15:55.462
Switzerland. So when somebody invests in
the MSCI South Africa,

283
00:15:55.931 --> 00:15:59.447
that will be your pure South African
companies.

284
00:15:59.478 --> 00:16:00.775
That will be your NASPAS.

285
00:16:01.047 --> 00:16:03.289
because it's still got its primary listing
in South Africa.

286
00:16:04.270 --> 00:16:06.211
That will be your South African banks.

287
00:16:07.274 --> 00:16:13.258
So just to get and a lot of people will
usually say that's more reflective of your

288
00:16:13.258 --> 00:16:15.258
SA Inc.

289
00:16:15.258 --> 00:16:16.680
type of stocks, although it's a little bit
difficult to say that,

290
00:16:16.766 --> 00:16:20.453
but that is sort of your SA Inc.

291
00:16:20.531 --> 00:16:21.231
stocks.

292
00:16:21.453 --> 00:16:23.828
Do you want to take a guess, year-to-date,

293
00:16:24.391 --> 00:16:30.469
what the MSCI South Africa is currently
what it's done year-to-date?

294
00:16:30.611 --> 00:16:31.431
in dollar terms.

295
00:16:31.451 --> 00:16:33.211
Yes, it's $18 in dollar terms.

296
00:16:33.332 --> 00:16:34.131
Gosh, I don't know.

297
00:16:34.252 --> 00:16:36.051
Scalp, 27%.

298
00:16:36.133 --> 00:16:40.051
There's that laugh again.

299
00:16:40.090 --> 00:16:41.535
There's that coat hanger coming in.

300
00:16:41.536 --> 00:16:43.192
You should try harder.

301
00:16:45.731 --> 00:16:49.473
It's currently 65%. Not bad.

302
00:16:49.660 --> 00:16:51.098
In dollar terms, year to date.

303
00:16:51.395 --> 00:16:52.676
Dollars terms, crikey.

304
00:16:52.957 --> 00:16:57.582
But then again, in round terms, it'll be
less than that because the round's been

305
00:16:57.582 --> 00:16:59.582
stronger against the dollar.

306
00:16:59.582 --> 00:17:01.582
Slightly, slightly.

307
00:17:01.582 --> 00:17:05.165
Slightly less, but I mean, it just shows
you what our pure South African countess

308
00:17:05.165 --> 00:17:07.165
has done this year.

309
00:17:07.165 --> 00:17:09.165
And yes, it is.

310
00:17:09.165 --> 00:17:10.106
Remember, your Impala Platinum has got its
main listing in South Africa.

311
00:17:11.067 --> 00:17:17.060
Your Durban-Rudipur Deep, your Northern
Platinum, those all companies.

312
00:17:17.122 --> 00:17:18.575
This is all hindsight, Scott.

313
00:17:18.591 --> 00:17:19.653
This is all hindsight.

314
00:17:20.122 --> 00:17:21.575
This is where you're going to earn your
money.

315
00:17:21.919 --> 00:17:26.388
I was talking to a fund manager yesterday,
very, very good fund manager as well.

316
00:17:27.431 --> 00:17:33.232
A woman who talks her mind and I said,
what differentiates your fund from the

317
00:17:33.232 --> 00:17:33.355
rest?

318
00:17:33.355 --> 00:17:35.474
Because she outstrips everybody.

319
00:17:36.076 --> 00:17:37.513
And she said, I'm a good seller.

320
00:17:38.677 --> 00:17:45.521
And that was the only thing she said about
being differentiated from the

321
00:17:45.568 --> 00:17:48.240
herd, selling properly.

322
00:17:49.099 --> 00:17:51.662
She said, we're very good buyers, anyone
can buy.

323
00:17:51.833 --> 00:17:53.412
You buy gold because it's doing so well.

324
00:17:53.458 --> 00:17:58.879
I'm a buyer, You don't get many people
saying, gosh, he or she's a good seller.

325
00:17:59.542 --> 00:18:00.659
That's my lesson of the day.

326
00:18:00.741 --> 00:18:01.901
So tell us, where is it going?

327
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:02.620
When are you selling?

328
00:18:04.002 --> 00:18:04.963
When am I selling gold?

329
00:18:05.143 --> 00:18:06.081
Yeah, when are you selling gold?

330
00:18:06.143 --> 00:18:06.843
Come on now.

331
00:18:07.721 --> 00:18:09.581
It's not very well being a buyer.

332
00:18:09.620 --> 00:18:14.167
So currently, I don't want to sound like a
typical economist.

333
00:18:14.276 --> 00:18:18.604
They always say you need to find yourself
a one-handed economist.

334
00:18:18.667 --> 00:18:24.573
Economists always remember, they always
say, on the one hand, we see interest

335
00:18:24.573 --> 00:18:26.573
rates going up.

336
00:18:26.573 --> 00:18:28.573
It's called political correctness.

337
00:18:28.573 --> 00:18:30.573
It's called corporate governance.

338
00:18:30.573 --> 00:18:32.573
But anyway, go on.

339
00:18:32.573 --> 00:18:34.943
But I mean, if I'm going to be a
one-handed portfolio manager,

340
00:18:35.607 --> 00:18:38.450
I do think that that gold is currently
overvalued.

341
00:18:38.888 --> 00:18:41.864
I do think it's done a little bit too much
too quickly.

342
00:18:43.333 --> 00:18:47.255
Because, I mean, we've seen a massive,
massive retracement.

343
00:18:47.583 --> 00:18:53.255
There's a lot of people that say, well, if
we currently look at all the gold

344
00:18:53.255 --> 00:18:55.255
reserves,

345
00:18:55.255 --> 00:18:59.935
available in the world and still need to
attach some sort of valuation

346
00:19:01.954 --> 00:19:08.345
of all the money that's been printed and a
gold can pretty much go to a hundred

347
00:19:08.345 --> 00:19:10.345
thousand over a hundred thousand dollars
per ounce

348
00:19:10.345 --> 00:19:14.071
I'm not in that court we've gone beyond
that but gold has done a lot

349
00:19:14.603 --> 00:19:21.509
I'm always worried when the likes of of
the Goldman Sachs is like for instance

350
00:19:21.509 --> 00:19:23.509
last week came out and say well they now
increase

351
00:19:23.509 --> 00:19:25.509
their forecast for gold.

352
00:19:25.509 --> 00:19:28.827
um you're so brave of them i mean they
said it would be 4 000 in the first

353
00:19:28.827 --> 00:19:30.827
quarter of 2026 it goes to 4

354
00:19:30.827 --> 00:19:36.092
000 two days later and then they say oh
it's going to go here next i'd love to get

355
00:19:36.092 --> 00:19:38.092
a seven figure figure just to talk to
state

356
00:19:38.092 --> 00:19:43.045
the obvious which is what these people do
a lot of the time and i'm of course being

357
00:19:43.045 --> 00:19:45.045
jealous and generalist generalistic about
it

358
00:19:45.045 --> 00:19:49.857
anyway scout go on sorry goldman sachs So
they're calling it $4,009,

359
00:19:49.896 --> 00:19:51.357
and then I always get a bit worried.

360
00:19:51.419 --> 00:19:57.650
And it's like you mentioned, if I look at
media, if I look at social media, and if I

361
00:19:57.650 --> 00:19:59.650
look at I get very similar vibes.

362
00:19:59.650 --> 00:20:03.223
that I actually got a year or so ago when
people, when

363
00:20:03.762 --> 00:20:09.785
Bitcoin just went through the $100,000
mark and people were saying, well, this is

364
00:20:09.785 --> 00:20:11.785
only the beginning.

365
00:20:11.785 --> 00:20:14.207
It's now going to go to a million dollars.

366
00:20:14.317 --> 00:20:16.020
That's where I get a little bit worried.

367
00:20:16.035 --> 00:20:23.004
But remember, and we've had this
conversation, I'm still invested in the

368
00:20:23.004 --> 00:20:25.004
gold mines.

369
00:20:25.004 --> 00:20:29.291
And when you've got a mine, like for
instance, the likes of a gold fields, gold

370
00:20:29.291 --> 00:20:31.291
fields,

371
00:20:31.291 --> 00:20:33.291
they're all in cost.

372
00:20:33.291 --> 00:20:36.721
That is what it costs them to go down
those mines, to mine these gold.

373
00:20:36.722 --> 00:20:38.823
Dig it out of the ground, in other words.

374
00:20:38.824 --> 00:20:39.659
Yes, that's all in cost.

375
00:20:41.299 --> 00:20:47.252
They're mining this for anything between
$1,700 and they haven't reached $2,000.

376
00:20:47.253 --> 00:20:50.471
So let's call it $2,000 per ounce.

377
00:20:51.906 --> 00:20:58.428
The longer that the gold prices stay at
these current levels, these mines are

378
00:20:58.428 --> 00:21:00.428
printing money.

379
00:21:00.428 --> 00:21:01.748
They've got 120% margins.

380
00:21:01.787 --> 00:21:04.631
It's extraordinary what's going on.

381
00:21:04.632 --> 00:21:08.553
So suddenly the gold mines, that's usually
been something you trade, not invest in,

382
00:21:09.272 --> 00:21:15.756
is suddenly a great company to be invested
in because they extremely, well, the cash

383
00:21:15.756 --> 00:21:17.756
flow positive,

384
00:21:17.756 --> 00:21:17.818
they don't have any debt on their balance
sheets.

385
00:21:19.766 --> 00:21:24.553
Yes, as long as the gold price stay at
these levels, I'm happy.

386
00:21:24.709 --> 00:21:31.678
I'm happy to hold my investment in gold
because gold, they're actually still doing

387
00:21:31.678 --> 00:21:33.678
really,

388
00:21:33.678 --> 00:21:35.678
really well.

389
00:21:35.678 --> 00:21:37.209
Well, I hope you're just ready for
something that happens in the future,

390
00:21:37.209 --> 00:21:39.209
which will happen, of course.

391
00:21:39.209 --> 00:21:41.209
It is going to happen.

392
00:21:41.209 --> 00:21:42.490
It never goes up in a straight line.

393
00:21:42.662 --> 00:21:44.490
Nothing as parabolic as this anyway.

394
00:21:44.772 --> 00:21:45.975
So just be ready.

395
00:21:46.006 --> 00:21:46.912
I know you always are.

396
00:21:47.282 --> 00:21:53.087
And you'll be the first or second one to
press the sell button as soon as that gold

397
00:21:53.087 --> 00:21:55.087
price tips over,

398
00:21:55.087 --> 00:21:57.087
which it will one day.

399
00:21:57.087 --> 00:21:59.087
Not yet, though.

400
00:21:59.087 --> 00:22:01.087
OK, Scott, we've talked about the exciting
stuff.

401
00:22:01.087 --> 00:22:03.087
Let's get the boring stuff out the way
now.

402
00:22:03.087 --> 00:22:05.087
Karoo's numbers came out from the JSC
today.

403
00:22:05.087 --> 00:22:07.087
Share price down around about 10%.

404
00:22:07.087 --> 00:22:09.481
There was some sort of corporate activity
at AECI,

405
00:22:10.044 --> 00:22:12.122
and that share price down 8.5%.

406
00:22:12.123 --> 00:22:14.450
Do you want to talk about either of those
briefly?

407
00:22:15.558 --> 00:22:21.405
AECI, where we can chat about Kuru, I
always struggle because that's not the way

408
00:22:21.405 --> 00:22:23.405
you spell the Kuru.

409
00:22:23.405 --> 00:22:23.945
Exactly, it's got five O's, hasn't it?

410
00:22:24.585 --> 00:22:31.577
I struggle to read any trading statements
or financial statements when they spell

411
00:22:31.577 --> 00:22:31.777
Kuru

412
00:22:31.777 --> 00:22:32.640
with five O's.

413
00:22:33.312 --> 00:22:39.124
I agree, so they can go and stop being
stupid and spell it properly and then

414
00:22:39.124 --> 00:22:41.124
we'll have a look at it.

415
00:22:41.124 --> 00:22:43.124
AECI now, bang bang.

416
00:22:43.124 --> 00:22:47.703
Now all the listeners will remember Karu
is the one with the five O's. Yeah, ACI,

417
00:22:48.105 --> 00:22:51.430
the CEO now resigned.

418
00:22:51.992 --> 00:22:53.430
He stepped down as CEO.

419
00:22:53.492 --> 00:22:59.984
He's been CEO for, and he stated that it's
for personal and family reasons.

420
00:23:00.172 --> 00:23:02.984
And people know this is a company that I
do like.

421
00:23:03.297 --> 00:23:10.265
But this is one of those that's just been
such a frustration for me

422
00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:13.445
because Although it's definitely a value
stock,

423
00:23:14.144 --> 00:23:18.109
it's a company that's been well managed
over the years.

424
00:23:19.269 --> 00:23:22.293
And it's a company that's looking
financially healthy.

425
00:23:22.496 --> 00:23:27.277
They've been selling off some of these
offshore companies that they had.

426
00:23:27.324 --> 00:23:31.605
So the company is looking, I would say,
financially very, very sound.

427
00:23:32.199 --> 00:23:39.136
But when a CEO surprised the market by
stepping down or noting

428
00:23:39.152 --> 00:23:41.760
that he's going to step down, And people
usually ask the questions, why?

429
00:23:42.481 --> 00:23:43.181
Why?

430
00:23:43.181 --> 00:23:43.981
Personal reasons.

431
00:23:44.001 --> 00:23:44.701
Why not?

432
00:23:45.001 --> 00:23:46.946
Sometimes you feel like stepping down,
don't you?

433
00:23:47.266 --> 00:23:52.673
And going and sitting with a cool
something in your hand and looking out and

434
00:23:52.673 --> 00:23:54.673
saying, goodness me,

435
00:23:54.673 --> 00:23:54.774
I'll miss gold.

436
00:23:54.852 --> 00:23:57.509
But, God, goodness me, it's served me
well.

437
00:23:57.774 --> 00:23:59.555
You'd like to do that, surely, one day.

438
00:24:00.634 --> 00:24:01.334
Correct.

439
00:24:01.334 --> 00:24:07.337
And it's been in that position or on the
leadership position for over 18 years.

440
00:24:07.540 --> 00:24:13.225
So, I mean, it's… Somewhere along the
line, you just know it is time.

441
00:24:13.266 --> 00:24:17.649
But the market did not like that at all.

442
00:24:17.829 --> 00:24:21.352
And the share price, that was down 8.8%
today on the news.

443
00:24:22.016 --> 00:24:22.716
Okay.

444
00:24:22.716 --> 00:24:26.802
I know it's time to get on with the
markets because we've been… jabbering on

445
00:24:26.802 --> 00:24:28.802
for far too long.

446
00:24:28.802 --> 00:24:32.446
Dollar-Rand is 1732, a little bit of risk
off, got the Rand a little bit weaker.

447
00:24:33.286 --> 00:24:39.333
The dollar though is 0.4% down against the
Rand, so overnight the Rand was weaker

448
00:24:39.333 --> 00:24:41.333
than it is.

449
00:24:41.333 --> 00:24:45.122
British Pound against the Rand 2320,
Euro-Rand back above 20, 2015.

450
00:24:45.123 --> 00:24:52.091
Euro-Dollar is 116.35, that's a Euro
that's about a quarter of a percent higher

451
00:24:52.091 --> 00:24:54.091
against the greenback and

452
00:24:54.091 --> 00:24:56.091
British pound against US dollar.

453
00:24:56.091 --> 00:25:00.577
is 133.95 over to gold 4200 on the noggin
it's 59 up or

454
00:25:00.578 --> 00:25:05.944
1.4 platinum up 22 to 16.99 16.99 is

455
00:25:06.045 --> 00:25:12.569
1700 a big number i'll look on my graph
later on the palladium price is

456
00:25:12.584 --> 00:25:19.522
not slipping but slipping relative to
platinum it's only up ten dollars an ounce

457
00:25:19.522 --> 00:25:21.522
to 15.99 dollars per ounce

458
00:25:21.522 --> 00:25:25.095
okay let's move to other commodities now
the oil price is all over the place in the

459
00:25:25.095 --> 00:25:27.095
last couple of months.

460
00:25:27.095 --> 00:25:31.001
And I think it was on Monday, it was on
Friday, it was down about 5%.

461
00:25:31.579 --> 00:25:32.986
Today, it's down 0.4%.

462
00:25:33.259 --> 00:25:36.244
That's Brent crude $62.02 a barrel.

463
00:25:36.806 --> 00:25:40.517
West Texas crude $58.42, which is down
0.3%.

464
00:25:40.673 --> 00:25:47.173
And the copper price has, it got very,
very close to a year high the other day,

465
00:25:47.533 --> 00:25:53.877
a real high anyway, because it had a
couple of spikes, which were to be taken

466
00:25:53.877 --> 00:25:55.877
off the graph But anyway, it's

467
00:25:55.877 --> 00:25:59.724
$4.97 a pound at the moment, was $5.20 a
pound a couple of days ago.

468
00:25:59.763 --> 00:26:01.001
That's commodities.

469
00:26:01.407 --> 00:26:02.368
S&P 500.

470
00:26:03.103 --> 00:26:09.829
After some good bank results, 67.42, up
0.8%.

471
00:26:09.830 --> 00:26:10.673
The U.S.

472
00:26:11.017 --> 00:26:17.313
10-year bond price, 4.01%, just about to
break its big figure from 4 to 3.

473
00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:19.126
The South African 10-year bond.

474
00:26:19.724 --> 00:26:22.408
is maybe going to go from 9 to 8.

475
00:26:22.466 --> 00:26:25.111
It's 9.04 at the moment.

476
00:26:25.209 --> 00:26:27.212
Really good performances in bonds.

477
00:26:27.513 --> 00:26:28.431
You could have bought gold.

478
00:26:28.470 --> 00:26:30.236
You could have bought bonds.

479
00:26:30.251 --> 00:26:31.837
You could have bought Bitcoin.

480
00:26:32.416 --> 00:26:34.181
I mean, you could have bought the stock
market.

481
00:26:34.455 --> 00:26:36.283
Four things all going up together.

482
00:26:36.564 --> 00:26:37.798
I've never seen that skulk.

483
00:26:38.345 --> 00:26:43.533
Bitcoin, $111,180 per coin.

484
00:26:43.611 --> 00:26:46.251
That's down 1.5%, underperforming.

485
00:26:46.845 --> 00:26:48.251
I'm exhausted after all that.

486
00:26:48.756 --> 00:26:50.037
Do you hear what I just said, Scalp?

487
00:26:51.339 --> 00:26:56.142
Four asset classes that don't always go in
the same direction, going in the same

488
00:26:56.142 --> 00:26:58.142
direction.

489
00:26:58.142 --> 00:27:02.732
Bonds, stocks, gold, and let's leave out
Bitcoin because it wasn't there during the

490
00:27:02.732 --> 00:27:04.732
good old days.

491
00:27:04.732 --> 00:27:06.732
Three in a row.

492
00:27:06.732 --> 00:27:08.732
That's ridiculous.

493
00:27:08.732 --> 00:27:10.732
There we go.

494
00:27:10.732 --> 00:27:12.419
You could have written all those asset
classes on a piece of paper, put it in a

495
00:27:12.419 --> 00:27:14.419
dartboard, throw the dart,

496
00:27:14.419 --> 00:27:16.419
and you would have made money.

497
00:27:16.419 --> 00:27:18.419
It doesn't matter which and where it
landed.

498
00:27:18.419 --> 00:27:20.375
Yeah, there's definitely some optimism
today from a US point of view.

499
00:27:20.637 --> 00:27:22.656
I mean, you and I have been talking about
it Friday.

500
00:27:23.097 --> 00:27:26.023
It was just as if all hell broke loose.

501
00:27:26.562 --> 00:27:32.570
I mean, Trump went like, I'm going to be
really tough on China.

502
00:27:33.554 --> 00:27:37.476
I'm going to increase their tariffs and
it's going to be beautiful.

503
00:27:38.086 --> 00:27:40.961
I love it when he says, I don't want to
hurt China.

504
00:27:41.492 --> 00:27:42.758
I want China to do well.

505
00:27:43.544 --> 00:27:46.225
I've got a great relationship with
President Xi.

506
00:27:46.686 --> 00:27:49.805
And then he says, by the way, 100% on
everything.

507
00:27:50.746 --> 00:27:53.246
He's such a nitwit, that man.

508
00:27:55.223 --> 00:27:59.613
And then I think 24 hours, because then
Friday, all hell broke loose.

509
00:28:00.082 --> 00:28:04.723
We had markets and I was sort of going
like, yes, at last,

510
00:28:04.754 --> 00:28:07.426
because I have some cash that I need to
deploy.

511
00:28:07.427 --> 00:28:12.895
And it's just tough to deploy it in a
market environment that's just, as you

512
00:28:12.895 --> 00:28:14.895
mentioned, where everything just goes up.

513
00:28:14.895 --> 00:28:18.272
There's no specific asset class that's
standing out as a, oh, this is a great

514
00:28:18.272 --> 00:28:20.272
opportunity.

515
00:28:20.272 --> 00:28:21.534
And markets retraced.

516
00:28:21.815 --> 00:28:24.573
And 24 hours later, he tweeted.

517
00:28:24.933 --> 00:28:27.315
He didn't even come out with some
statement.

518
00:28:27.339 --> 00:28:28.151
He tweeted.

519
00:28:28.175 --> 00:28:29.573
He says, no, don't worry.

520
00:28:29.823 --> 00:28:30.523
China will be OK.

521
00:28:31.761 --> 00:28:32.901
China will be fine.

522
00:28:32.902 --> 00:28:34.120
The taco's back.

523
00:28:34.417 --> 00:28:37.339
People forgot about the taco factor.

524
00:28:37.729 --> 00:28:39.636
Trump always chickens out, in other words.

525
00:28:40.020 --> 00:28:43.625
But he's checking it out again, but this
time it only took him 12 hours to check it

526
00:28:43.625 --> 00:28:44.043
out.

527
00:28:44.464 --> 00:28:45.546
Literally 12 hours.

528
00:28:45.925 --> 00:28:47.667
And how the markets reacted.

529
00:28:48.191 --> 00:28:51.996
So the model, the story again, reiterated
to me,

530
00:28:52.894 --> 00:28:59.402
was currently the political decision,
specifically in the U.S.,

531
00:28:59.855 --> 00:29:02.105
is now being dictated by market movements.

532
00:29:02.214 --> 00:29:04.386
I'm 100%.

533
00:29:04.589 --> 00:29:05.542
Because we've seen it.

534
00:29:05.543 --> 00:29:09.105
We've seen it in April, Liberation Day
speech.

535
00:29:09.472 --> 00:29:13.001
We've done that and it was just like it
was tough.

536
00:29:13.341 --> 00:29:17.072
Man, are we going to take you to town on
tariffs?

537
00:29:17.130 --> 00:29:18.275
And then markets.

538
00:29:19.116 --> 00:29:21.757
got very, very close to really correcting.

539
00:29:21.837 --> 00:29:23.677
I think it did in some senses.

540
00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:27.356
S&P was down 17%, I think, in three days.

541
00:29:27.380 --> 00:29:28.080
There we go.

542
00:29:28.080 --> 00:29:30.177
So there was a proper, proper, proper
correction.

543
00:29:30.755 --> 00:29:32.098
And then he backed down.

544
00:29:32.278 --> 00:29:36.973
So clearly markets are dictating the
political decisions.

545
00:29:37.380 --> 00:29:40.973
But I think today it's more, I think, the
Powell show.

546
00:29:41.067 --> 00:29:43.145
I mean, Powell did come out.

547
00:29:43.364 --> 00:29:49.677
And it's funny how the market actually
took what he said as What has he said,

548
00:29:49.717 --> 00:29:50.538
please?

549
00:29:50.539 --> 00:29:52.960
Tell us what he said.

550
00:29:52.961 --> 00:29:59.929
He actually came out and he said that
there's no real indication that things

551
00:30:00.069 --> 00:30:03.093
are changing in terms of the US economy.

552
00:30:04.015 --> 00:30:10.983
But he just said, but cautioned that a
notably softer labor market is emerging.

553
00:30:11.140 --> 00:30:12.421
And we've seen it in some of these.

554
00:30:13.320 --> 00:30:15.581
these data releases recently.

555
00:30:15.582 --> 00:30:18.743
Yeah, we haven't got the data anymore
because the government's shut down.

556
00:30:18.821 --> 00:30:24.762
But as soon as the government comes out,
we might get the non-farm payrolls and we

557
00:30:24.762 --> 00:30:26.762
might get the ADP numbers as well.

558
00:30:26.762 --> 00:30:32.028
And we also might be able to go to
Yosemite National Park to have a look at

559
00:30:32.028 --> 00:30:34.028
the animals.

560
00:30:34.028 --> 00:30:36.028
Everything's closed down in America.

561
00:30:36.028 --> 00:30:38.028
No, exactly.

562
00:30:38.028 --> 00:30:40.028
It's still government shutdown.

563
00:30:40.028 --> 00:30:41.669
But I mean, what I want to get to is The
market took his...

564
00:30:41.948 --> 00:30:47.575
let's call it his caution towards a
notably softer labor market

565
00:30:49.154 --> 00:30:50.060
as dovish.

566
00:30:50.318 --> 00:30:57.060
And the CME FedWatch tool suddenly went
from, ah, it was positive.

567
00:30:57.083 --> 00:30:59.560
But now, as we said here, 97%

568
00:31:00.247 --> 00:31:04.763
probability that we'll see a rate cut
again on the 10th of December.

569
00:31:05.263 --> 00:31:05.963
Okay.

570
00:31:05.963 --> 00:31:07.107
So there we go.

571
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:08.950
Don't be best against that one.

572
00:31:09.013 --> 00:31:11.310
It's the second one after that.

573
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:13.482
that is the important one.

574
00:31:13.502 --> 00:31:14.202
What have we got?

575
00:31:14.202 --> 00:31:14.983
September and December.

576
00:31:14.984 --> 00:31:17.805
But anyway, Skulk, I'm getting thirsty.

577
00:31:17.887 --> 00:31:20.926
So let's get on to the moves up and down
on the JSC.

578
00:31:21.231 --> 00:31:23.809
MTN, the big winner today, up 8%.

579
00:31:24.270 --> 00:31:25.754
Rishwan up 5.5%.

580
00:31:25.755 --> 00:31:26.817
Harmony, 4.5%.

581
00:31:27.176 --> 00:31:29.301
Advertech, a 3.6% gainer.

582
00:31:29.661 --> 00:31:31.223
And Capitech up 3.2%.

583
00:31:31.286 --> 00:31:37.098
Downside, ACI is not on my screen, but I'm
going to say 8.8% down for that one.

584
00:31:37.145 --> 00:31:37.845
Karoo, though.

585
00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:39.862
Down 9.8%.

586
00:31:39.863 --> 00:31:41.122
That was a nervous laugh, by the way.

587
00:31:41.564 --> 00:31:43.484
Carew with Five O's shareholders.

588
00:31:44.327 --> 00:31:45.726
Growth Point down nearly 6%.

589
00:31:46.249 --> 00:31:48.046
AVI down 4.5%.

590
00:31:48.047 --> 00:31:49.734
Fortress B down 4.4%.

591
00:31:49.735 --> 00:31:51.890
And Nepi Rock Castle down 2.3%.

592
00:31:52.210 --> 00:31:53.718
Property stocks in there, Skunk.

593
00:31:53.812 --> 00:31:56.077
Any ex-divs you should tell me about?

594
00:31:56.859 --> 00:31:57.559
Yeah, yeah.

595
00:31:57.559 --> 00:32:01.296
Fortress and Growth Point, both ex-divs
stories for today.

596
00:32:01.546 --> 00:32:02.246
Okay, good.

597
00:32:02.246 --> 00:32:07.327
Because that would have sort of soured
your gold euphoria.

598
00:32:07.736 --> 00:32:08.436
A little bit.

599
00:32:08.436 --> 00:32:10.520
Any other stocks that you've got that I
didn't mention?

600
00:32:11.340 --> 00:32:13.703
No, I think you've mentioned all.

601
00:32:13.704 --> 00:32:15.024
We talked about the winners.

602
00:32:15.025 --> 00:32:16.582
We talked about the losers.

603
00:32:16.684 --> 00:32:17.384
Good.

604
00:32:17.528 --> 00:32:19.910
So give us the closing JSC indices, if you
would.

605
00:32:20.973 --> 00:32:27.629
So the JSC today closed at 111,635 points.

606
00:32:27.832 --> 00:32:31.723
I mean, it takes me longer to read the
market.

607
00:32:31.801 --> 00:32:34.207
I think they should have a 10 for 1 split
or something like that.

608
00:32:34.223 --> 00:32:37.129
And that's up 69 basis points for today.

609
00:32:38.285 --> 00:32:40.748
Most of the gainers came from the
industrial side.

610
00:32:40.888 --> 00:32:43.849
That was up 1.2%, while resources were up
again

611
00:32:44.369 --> 00:32:48.595
0.63%. Financials were slightly in the
green, 0.2%.

612
00:32:48.978 --> 00:32:55.626
But as mentioned, the property stocks did
retrace a little bit today, down 2.1%. We

613
00:32:55.626 --> 00:32:57.626
look at the value trade,

614
00:32:57.626 --> 00:32:57.720
not a bad day at all.

615
00:32:58.080 --> 00:32:59.861
We've surpassed $30 billion today.

616
00:33:00.330 --> 00:33:03.142
$32 billion traded on the JSC today.

617
00:33:03.189 --> 00:33:04.892
I mean, it's been solid, Lindsay.

618
00:33:04.893 --> 00:33:06.095
I mean, you know, often...

619
00:33:06.396 --> 00:33:09.316
had these conversations on the value
traded on the market.

620
00:33:09.656 --> 00:33:15.641
I mean, this is now the second time this
week alone where we've surpassed the $32

621
00:33:15.642 --> 00:33:16.719
billion trade.

622
00:33:17.117 --> 00:33:22.352
And I think most of, when I look back,
past, let's go to five trading days,

623
00:33:22.695 --> 00:33:26.477
the average for the past five trading days
was just shy of $29 billion.

624
00:33:26.883 --> 00:33:33.055
Okay, just finally, because we're running
over time, JSE Limited, what's it done?

625
00:33:33.460 --> 00:33:37.244
today and what has it done over the last
month or so, if you would?

626
00:33:38.125 --> 00:33:41.567
Because these numbers you're talking
about, 32 billion,

627
00:33:41.629 --> 00:33:45.809
must be filtering through to the numbers
for the JSE itself.

628
00:33:46.817 --> 00:33:50.902
Yeah, that's a really interesting question
that you're having there because, I mean,

629
00:33:53.137 --> 00:33:53.856
we know that Dr.

630
00:33:53.902 --> 00:33:54.602
Leila Farid,

631
00:33:55.543 --> 00:34:01.043
she's now announced that she's going to
step down as the CEO of the JSE.

632
00:34:01.762 --> 00:34:02.462
And.

633
00:34:02.462 --> 00:34:04.318
And immediately I went and said, well,

634
00:34:05.199 --> 00:34:11.227
she started at Tenor as a CEO on the 1st
of October

635
00:34:11.228 --> 00:34:13.688
2019.

636
00:34:13.689 --> 00:34:16.547
And over that period, just for interest
sake,

637
00:34:16.548 --> 00:34:21.977
the JSE All Share has improved or has
grown.

638
00:34:22.628 --> 00:34:24.851
By 153%.

639
00:34:26.292 --> 00:34:27.753
So, yeah, that will be good.

640
00:34:27.792 --> 00:34:29.155
She can't take credit for that.

641
00:34:29.156 --> 00:34:30.659
But where's the JSE limited?

642
00:34:30.714 --> 00:34:31.414
That's the one.

643
00:34:32.034 --> 00:34:36.425
JSE, however, over that same period has
only grown 57%.

644
00:34:37.081 --> 00:34:43.284
So it's an 8% growth per annum versus the
JSE's growth by 17%.

645
00:34:43.362 --> 00:34:44.128
And we know why.

646
00:34:44.472 --> 00:34:50.128
We know that we've only seen volumes pick
up.

647
00:34:50.816 --> 00:34:51.917
over the past few months.

648
00:34:52.137 --> 00:34:54.561
And yeah, hopefully that will turn.

649
00:34:54.959 --> 00:34:56.881
I do think that there might be some
opportunity.

650
00:34:56.983 --> 00:34:58.686
That might be something to look at,
definitely.

651
00:34:58.920 --> 00:34:59.620
Okay, great.

652
00:34:59.620 --> 00:35:03.350
We'll keep an eye on that for the
remainder of this quarter.

653
00:35:03.772 --> 00:35:07.514
Meanwhile, Skulk, we'll reconvene this
time next week.

654
00:35:07.545 --> 00:35:08.780
And where will the gold price be?

655
00:35:09.139 --> 00:35:09.839
Should we have a guess?

656
00:35:10.061 --> 00:35:10.761
No, no, no.

657
00:35:10.811 --> 00:35:11.670
Let's not spoil it.

658
00:35:11.717 --> 00:35:14.545
Let's not get into that guessing game and
who got it right, who got it wrong.

659
00:35:14.792 --> 00:35:16.073
Because we're both going to get it wrong.

660
00:35:16.134 --> 00:35:16.834
We know that.

661
00:35:16.995 --> 00:35:18.437
Skulk, thank you very much for your time.

662
00:35:18.575 --> 00:35:21.679
When we were young, I just want to say,
when we were young, we're getting old,

663
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:21.797
Lindsay.

664
00:35:22.120 --> 00:35:22.917
When we were young,

665
00:35:23.401 --> 00:35:30.323
there would have been a black label bet on
this every day of

666
00:35:30.324 --> 00:35:31.245
the week, for sure.

667
00:35:31.651 --> 00:35:32.433
Now we're getting old.

668
00:35:32.511 --> 00:35:35.417
Now we don't want to even guess.

669
00:35:35.418 --> 00:35:36.118
Do you know what?

670
00:35:37.167 --> 00:35:41.917
I don't need to guess what the alcohol,
the ABV of a black label is.

671
00:35:41.918 --> 00:35:43.339
It's 5.5%.

672
00:35:43.436 --> 00:35:44.657
And it's delicious as well.

673
00:35:45.018 --> 00:35:46.199
And it's relatively cheap.

674
00:35:46.318 --> 00:35:48.762
And it's the beer of the people in South
Africa.

675
00:35:48.763 --> 00:35:50.422
And that was my beer of choice, of course.

676
00:35:50.664 --> 00:35:52.367
You know what my beer of choice is now?

677
00:35:52.406 --> 00:35:53.106
Well, you wouldn't know.

678
00:35:53.344 --> 00:35:54.344
It's called Warsteiner.

679
00:35:54.383 --> 00:35:57.531
It's a fine beer, but it's a non-alcoholic
beer.

680
00:35:58.313 --> 00:36:05.039
But I've sort of beat the system, because
if you look at the back, it says less than

681
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:07.039
0.5%.

682
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:09.586
So I've worked out if I drink 632 of them,
I can get pissed, which is great.

683
00:36:10.055 --> 00:36:12.945
LAUGHTER

684
00:36:14.737 --> 00:36:17.238
I found a loophole.

685
00:36:17.778 --> 00:36:23.238
Skullclaw is a portfolio manager at PSG
Wealth Old Oak in Cape Town, and that was

686
00:36:23.238 --> 00:36:25.238
the five o'clock shadow.

687
00:36:25.238 --> 00:36:31.082
The views and opinions expressed in these
podcasts are those of Lindsay Williams and

688
00:36:31.082 --> 00:36:33.082
various contributors and do not reflect
the policy,

689
00:36:33.082 --> 00:36:35.613
position, or opinion of any other agency,
organisation, employer,

690
00:36:35.942 --> 00:36:39.785
or company associated with
StrictlyBusinessPodcast.com.

691
00:36:40.254 --> 00:36:47.231
Assumptions made on the analyses are not
reflective of the position of any other

692
00:36:47.231 --> 00:36:49.231
entity other than the speaker or the
author.

693
00:36:49.231 --> 00:36:52.692
And since we are critically thinking human
beings, these views are always subject to

694
00:36:52.692 --> 00:36:52.814
change,

695
00:36:52.973 --> 00:36:55.559
revision and rethinking at any time.

696
00:36:55.856 --> 00:36:58.262
Please do not hold us to them in
perpetuity.
